Usually I get 24 miles to the gallon for stop-and-go city
driving with the '06 Camry LE, but this last tankful I got
28 city. I really babied the accelerator pedal this time
and, of course, have plenty of air in the tires. I had
Shell V-Power premium in the tank this time (for its
exceptional detergent levels), but usually I just put in
a regular grade.

I had Hy-Vee Grocery Store premium in there two tankfuls
back, and thought the car was idling kinda rough sometimes
while stopped, so I thought some Shell V-Power was in
order to help clean out any minute amounts of potential
gunk I might have gotten from the Hy-Vee gas.

When I asked him, the Hy-Vee manager said his gas met
the Top Tier standard, but Hy-Vee is not on the list
of Top Tier stations at toptiergas.com, so I doubt
Hy-Vee is Top Tier.

On Hy-Vee, the car once idled at only 600 rpm; I've never
seen it idle so low. Usually 650 to 700 is the lowest it'll
idle at. It could have been a coincidence that the one 600
idle happened under Hy-Vee.

Quoting the Break Time page at the MFA Oil web site:

"TOP TIER Gasoline is a new class of gasoline with enhanced
detergency. It meets new, voluntary deposit control standards
developed by four automotive companies - BMW, General Motors,
Honda and Toyota - that exceed the detergent requirements
imposed by the EPA.

"TOP TIER Gasoline keeps engine parts cleaner by reducing
fuel-related deposits, resulting in better performance.
A lower level of detergent may cause a buildup of deposits on
critical engine parts. These deposits can cause stalling,
rough idling, lowered acceleration and other unnecessary
problems in your vehicle--and your life.

"TOP TIER Gasoline:

* Improves fuel efficiency
* Prevents driving upsets (rough idle, hesitation, stalling
and surge)
* Improves acceleration
* Provides more power
* Reduces emissions
* Cleans dirty engines and keeps new engines clean

MFA Oil Company is proud to join industry leaders by requiring
TOP TIER Gasoline with higher levels of detergent in all grades
and every gallon of gasoline at Break Time Convenience Stores.

Link: http://www.mfaoil.com/index.cfm?show=10&mid=14&pid=4

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:02:09 -0700, Built_Well wrote:


Ugh. This is about the same as Getty, Gibbs, Hess, etc regular.
It's usually bottom of the barrel gas.

I like my cars a lot better than that...

Hachiroku wrote:

That was the first and only time I'll use Hy-Vee gas.

They're regular grade is 89 octane, just like their mid-grade
and priced the same. But my car was using their 91 octane
premium. They lost a customer....good place to buy
groceries, though.

Built_Well wrote:
Do you know what terminal they get their gas from?
Wonder if it is Conoco, Exxon, or Shell?

"Paul" <Paul@slowcast.net> wrote in message
news:YJudnQTTZJJN3RPVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
Do you know additives they put in? They weren't the same ones used by
Conoco, Exxon, or Shell retailers.

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:_srjk.175$XB4.14@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
How do you know that?

After reviewing the list of TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers at their website,
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html , I couldn't help but notice that
Valero, one of the largest independent refiners in the eastern US, was not
on the list. Here in Delaware, the Valero refinery in Delaware City was
built in the mid 1950's specifically designed to handle sour crude. It is
still in operation, providing numerous retail operations in this region,
including Shell (which IS on the list) with their gasoline.

If suppliers like Turkey Hill Minit Markets and Qwik Trip are identified as
being Top Tier gasolinr retailers, why isn't Valero? Especially if they are
supplying gasoline to companies that ARE on the list?


"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:651bc804-021d-483c-9d29-8e6b10ec2514@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote
It's a matter of additives which are mixed with the gasoline at a later
stage (at the distribution center). So, by adding specific
additives/detergents, a company that receives plain gasoline from Valero
can claim that their gas is "top tier". Valero choses not to include
those detergents in sufficient quantities at their retail locations,
hence they didn't make the list.

Pete

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:02:09 -0700 (PDT), Built_Well
<Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote:

Actually one of our car mags here in the UK have just run an article on BP
hi-grade gas & Diesel.

They state that the claims for extra mileage is true but the most convincing for
me at least is the test using an Audi V8 adapted to run one bank on regular
gas/petrol and the other bank on BP Ultimate.

They fitted cameras to the inside of the combustion chambers and the regular
fuel side is a shitty as hell and the BP Ultimate side is like a new stainless
steel sink with no deposits and sparkling clean.

You might see pics on the web "Car Mechanics" or "Kelsey Publishing"

try - http://www.kelsey.co.uk

Hugh

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

hsg@h-gee.co.uk wrote:
It all depends on how you look at it. Unless you are racing or
pulling a heavy load up a hill it won't matter what the octane rating
is. Top tier refers to the additives that prevent build up of deposits,
especially on the intake valves. As far as getting extra mileage with
higher octane? I don't buy it, either the argument or the product. A
friend of mine would always by premium fuel, it ranged from 15 to 20
cents more per gallon. I suggested he try regular instead, but it
wasn't until we did the math that he tried it.
It went something like 300K miles divided by 25 miles/gal = 12K gal
times 18 cents = 2160 dollars. To me it's all about what it costs to
get a mile down the road, total expenses. Fuel, tires,insurance
repairs, maintenance. You can drive a Caddie or Lexus and it's going
to cost you more per mile, you can go to the other extreme and drive a
used tin can and get down the road pretty cheap. I've found Honda
Accords and Toyota Camerys to be a pretty good all around cars,
comfortable enough, right size enough, economical enough to get me that
mile down the road without breaking the bank. I use regular in them,
top tier regular if it's there but I don't worry all that much about
it. The EPA has standards for fuel which must be met and deposit
problems are addressed by them. I stay away from ethanol. The only
preignition or knocking I've encountered in a long time are with a
couple of lawnmowers and a motorcycle.
Quit kidding yourself, Do the math and get yourself some free money.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1996/July...23484.txt.html

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:00:38 -0500, Fat Moe <FatMoe@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote:

Actually the maths work better here in the UK than there in the US as our gas is
3 x the price of your gas.

--

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:38:08 -0500, Fat Moe <FatMoe@BubbleWorld.Com> wrote:

Agreed - most gov' agencies lay down standards but they are NEVER top tier as
you put it.

Take mobile/cell phones for one - basic standards exist - to make and receive
phone calls. Some makes/models do it better than others and some have bells and
whistles like movie cameras and 10Meg Pix still cameras and Internet access etc
and probably in the not too distant future a ray gun or two and a tea maker and
some have quad band access so I can use mine over there in the USA and Japan as
well as Euroland and the UK.

--

Sir Hugh of Bognor

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!

Hugh Gundersen
hsg@h-gee.co.uk
Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-EFC8D1.07141229072008@news.usenetserver.com...
Opinion or fact? If fact, please cite a reference.

I know GM and others recommend top tier gasoline. Ford recommends BP.
The US EPA claims that all US gasoline contains the minimum about of a
fuel system cleaner to be effective (see
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1996/July...23484.txt.html ). There
is some question about what is being controlled. Apparently the EPA is
only concerned with fuel injector and valve deposits and not with
combustion chamber deposits. The top tier gasoline standard does
address combustion chamber deposits but not in the manner you might
think.....see http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html : "The
base fuel from 1.3.1.2 treated with additive at the concentration
meeting the standard found in 1.3.1.3 shall not result in more than
140% of the average CCD weight for the base fuel without additive." So
for top tier gasoline you are allowed to have greater combustion
chamber deposits than is the case for the base fuels...very strange.

I believe you are incorrect when you say "deposit problems are NOT
addressed with govt standard level additives." I suggest you read the
EPA reference cited above. It has a lot more detail than I am willing
to quote. A couple of key points - 1) not all gasoline is the same
when it comes to deposit forming characteristics, 2) the required
properties of gasoline vary for different regions (different blends
are required in different areas), 3) the EPA has established national
limits for deposit fighting additives, 4) the minimum level specified
by the EPA is based on an "average" gasoline, thus in some areas the
amount of fuel system cleaners in the gasoline may far exceed the need
while for other feedstocks it may actually be insufficient (but the
theory is no one car is going to continually get gasoline with too low
a level of fuel system cleaners), 5) the use of ethanol may reduce the
effectiveness of some fuel system cleaners. The following statement is
from the EPA Rule:

" (i) Detergent additives for the control of port fuel injector
deposits (PFID) and/or intake valve deposits (IVD) in gasoline engines
may not be transferred or sold for use in compliance with this subpart
unless such additives have been certified according to the
requirements of this section.
(ii) Except as provided in Sec. 80.169(c)(8), PFID and IVD control
additives may not be added to gasoline or post-refinery component PRC)
for compliance with this subpart unless such additives have been
certified according to the requirements of this section.
(iii) Gasoline may not be sold or transferred to a party who sells
or transfers gasoline to the ultimate consumer unless such gasoline
contains detergent additives which have been certified according to
the requirements of this section.

" (2) Beginning August 1, 1997, all gasoline sold or transferred to
the ultimate consumer must contain detergent additive(s) which have
been certified, according to the requirements of this section, to be
effective for the control of PFID and IVD in gasoline engines."

I don't see where the "Top Tier" gasoline program requires anything
more stringent than this when it comes to "control of PFID and IVD in
gasoline engines." They do address combustion chamber deposits (by
allowing them to be 140% of the level for untreated fuel?????) and
valve sticking. I suppose Top Tier gasoline may have some advantage,
but it almost seems to me that it is more of a marketing ploy than a
real performance standard.

Years ago (I am talking about the early 1990's) it was common for
branded gasolines to advertise that their premium grades included
higher levels of fuel system cleaners than their regular grades. I
also know that prior to the implementation of the EPA requirements
that unbranded gas often did not contain fuel system cleaners. But the
situation today is not so clear. By rule all gasoline must include an
effective level of fuel system cleaners. As I read the EPA
information, it is possible that some gasoline that are more likely to
create deposits than others might not have as high a level of fuel
system cleaner as necessary to prevent deposits, but that it is not
likely that any one vehicle would consistently receive this type of
gasoline. I would hope that all premium gasoline is not the type that
is likely to be the deposit forming variety, and therefore the EPA
mandated level of fuel system cleaners is more than sufficient for
premium grades. So it seems that there is no reason for refiners to
add extra fuel system cleaners to premium gasoline. And in fact, I
rarely see it claimed that this is the case these days. Furthermore,
based on my reading of the Top Tier Gasoline standards, it appears
that fuel system cleaners might actually increase the level of
combustion chamber deposits (why else would the TT standard allowed
increased levels of CCDs?). So I think having to high a level of fuel
system cleaners in gasoline might actually be a bad thing.

A few opinions:

- Unleaded gasoline is a commodity. Just because the station says
Shell or BP on the pumps does not imply that the gasoline was refined
at a Shell or BP refinery. I hope that having Shell or BP or whatever
on the pumps guarantees that the gasoline being sold meets the brand's
quality standards, contains the brand's standard additive package, and
is of consistent quality.

- Top Tier Gasoline may in fact meet additional standards, but I
suspect it is more of a marketing ploy than anything else. At most, it
is a way for car manufacturers to encourage car owners to stay away
from crappy gas and a way for refiners to differentiate their products
so they can charge a few extra pennies. I am not going out of my way
to look for Top Tier gasoline.

- Unless your vehicle requires premium you are wasting your money if
you buy premium. I know many vehicles with knock systems can adjust
the engine parameters to improve performance and increase mileage when
premium gas is used, but you are never going to increase the mileage
enough to recoup the higher cost of the gasoline.

- Mid-grade fuel is a total rip off.

- At least where I live, there appears to be no downside from using
unbranded gasoline, or gasoline from second tier suppliers. Although I
occasionally buy gas at a BP or Shell station, for the most part I use
Costco, Wilco, Raceway, and Pantry gasoline. I keep a log book and I
see no deterioration in fuel economy. I can detect no decrease in
performance. I have not had the heads off,or looked at the valves to
verify that there are (or are not) deposit problem, but why would I do
something like that? My Sister recently sold her 1997 Civic with 140k
miles. The car was a rolling piece of junk, but the engine ran fine.
She never bought anything but the cheapest gas she could find. I
suppose in other areas there may be gas which is more likely to form
deposits, and therefore cheap gas may cause problems, but at least in
my area (central / eastern NC) that does not appear to be the case.

Ed

hsg@h-gee.co.uk wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:34:52 -0400, "doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com>
wrote:

Hi Doug,

You have hit on a problem with sites like this. Nowhere on their web
site is the owner of the web site listed. They state that gasoline
must meet their requirements but their site doesn't list their
requirements. Could the major requirement be paying to be listed?

Most gasoline sold in any major metro area comes from just a few
refineries. The Toledo, Ohio metro area has just two refineries that
supply over 90% of the gas sold in NW Ohio. The oil companies say
that they have their own additive package that is added to the tanker
as it's filled. That may be true, I don't know. But one thing I do
know is that no gas station in my area sells bad gas. If they did,
they wouldn't stay in business.

You will get good gasoline almost anywhere you buy it so don't pay any
attention to web sites that purport to rate gasoline or oil companies.
And don't waste your money buying premium gas if your car doesn't need
it, you won't get better mileage and your car won't run better on it.

Jack

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:32:38 +0100, hsg@h-gee.co.uk wrote:

Don't you guys have 'truth in advertising' laws in the UK?

How did they fit a camera inside the combustion chamber? Do you have
any idea of the conditions, both heat and pressure, inside the
combustion chamber of an operating engine? Do you actually believe
this claim?

Jack

Retired VIP <jackj.extradots.180@windstream.net> wrote:
According to the NIC, the toptiergas.com site is registered by GM.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:58:19 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

Maybe YOU should learn to read Elmo.

"They fitted cameras to the inside of the combustion chambers"

His words, not mine. Why in hell would they 'fit' cameras inside the
combustion chambers if they just wanted pictures of the combustion
chamber with the engine off. It would be a lot easier to pull the
head and photograph the chamber! If they used a fiber-optic camera,
fed through the sparkplug hole, then say that. Don't say you fitted a
camera. jezzz

Jack

On 29 Jul 2008 13:05:17 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Thanks Scott. Now, what are their requirements in order to be listed?

Jack