Is the maintenance cost of old cars like, 1980's Corollas, higher or lower
than the maintenance cost of new cars, like the 2003 corolla? In other
words, (1) do parts for 1980's cars generally cost more or less than year
2000's cars and, (2) does labor for 1980's cars generally cost more or less
than year 2000's cars?

On 30-Oct-2003, "New Question" <nq@nq.com> wrote:

Labor is labor- you pay the shop rate no matter what year the car is. If you
can't do the repairs yourself, buy a newer car. All cars get old and parts
wear out. Doing the work yourself makes an old car viable. If you have to
pay someone else to do the work, buy a newer vehicle that will need fewer
repairs.
Parts prices depend entirely on the part in question and where it is bought.
Some places are cheaper than others. And some parts are inexpensive while
others cost an arm and a leg. If you do your own work, junkyards are a
source for many parts.

max-income
--
Every day is a good day- it's just that some are better than others.

New Question wrote:

Per-incident and per-part cost is lower; for example, rebuilt starter
for 80s, $40, new starter for 2003, $200. On the other hand, a 1980
Corolla is likely to need a starter repair/replacement, while a 2003 is
not. As cars get older, generic and rebuilt parts become available, and
thus the price does go down.

While at any specific shop, labour is labour, with older cars, there are
more shops that can and will work on them, giving more choices, and thus
chances at lower-cost labour rates. Vehicles past certain dates (~1990
for Airbags and ABS, ~1996 for OBD/OBDII) require more capital equipment
at the shop, and thus some of the lower-rent shops may simply not be
able to work on them. On the other hand, vehicles starting in 1993/1994
use R134a rather than R12, making the A/C systems easier and cheaper to
maintain these days.

All that said, a 1980 Corolla is far easier and cheaper to work on and
maintain than 2003 Corolla: less complex, more space in the engine
compartment, few if any SSTs (Special Service Tools) required. On the
other hand, a 1980 Corolla is going to be high-mileage point and thus
require work; a 2003 Corolla should easily make it to 150k without any
major work required.

GTr

If you can do your own work, older (late 70's-80s) cars are much
easier to work on. In my '79 celica (RWD), I've changed the radiator,
alternator, clutch slave and master cylinders, shocks with no problem.
Valve adjustments and spark plugs are a breeze. The only item I had
done was the clutch.

Just changing the spark plugs in my '95 Avalon takes me two hours
(those on the rear bank are a bitch). In my Celica's 20R, spark plugs
take me 10 minutes max.

Brakes and oil changes are routine on both cars. As far as parts go,
both cars use the same oil filters. The brake pads cost me $80 for the
Avalon, including the shim kit. Pads for my Celica cost me half that,
last time I changed them.

FWD cars would be more to fix, labor wise,than RWD, as transverse
engines don't make for much room to work.

"New Question" <nq@nq.com> wrote in message news:<%%8ob.91414$W77.60572@bignews6.bellsouth.net >...

"Thomas Lembessis" <drazos@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1f92b046.0310301512.64460890@posting.google.c om...
If you want the ultimate in inexpensive transportation, you can't beat a
old-style VW bug. Everything on the car, except the transmission, was made
to be worked on by the owner. My wife bought a '69 bug 15 years ago for
$750 and it still gets us around fine. I haven't kept track precisely, but
we've probably put about $2500 in parts into it including one new engine for
$1200. It's kind of nice to have a car that is worth more every year
instead of less! :)

George

There is no question today's vehicles are better and not only
from a maintenance standpoint. No points, condenser,
distributor, carburetor or choke that needs to be serviced so
often. Plugs can easily last to 100K. Lubed for life
suspensions are much superior to anything in the past. Much
better 'rubber' items are available today that last five or six
times as long, like tires, hoses and belts. Engine and tranny
engineering is light years ahead of where they were just fifteen
years ago, those things last three four or five times as long
before needing an overhaul. 200k and more is common today.
Printed circuits are much more dependable than hard wiring any
day. Interior fabrics will last years longer than the old mohair
interiors. Even big vehicles today get the kind of fuel mileage
that was common to the small cars of the seventies. The list goes
on.


mike hunt



Thomas Lembessis wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:55:55 -0800, <Gmlyle@scvnet.com> wrote:

Are you kidding? .......

I had one and it was a real bitch to work on, unless you were prepared
to pull the engine completely out, which is what VW shops normally
did. You couldn't even see the cylinder heads, so your spark plugs
went in by 'feel'.......

Ever changed the exhaust silencer/heater contraption? There were 6
manifolds in different planes to get lined up correctly - otherwise
you might kill yourself with exhaust gases via the heater system.
A real nightmare to maintain.

David

"David " <djh@btelecom.com> wrote in message
news:3fa44f94.19544010@extra.news.plus.net...
Agreed, David, and the pancake engine in the squareback was worse yet!

Pulling the engine completely out takes about 45 minutes and requires
(gasp!) a floor jack. Try that with any other car! I'd rather pull the
engine out of a bug than try to pull the engine _accessories_ out of most
cars. I dread the day when our Scion needs a clutch.

Yes, the muffler is one piece and attached only to the engine, as opposed to
the common multiple piece system running from one end of the car to the
other and hung on various body parts. If you buy a good one (such as the
Leibstricht) it goes on very easily. And last a long time. If you get a
cheapy knock-off made in Taiwan you'll cuss for hours trying to make it fit
and have to do the job over again in two years. Cheap parts cost more in
the long run.

Show me evidence of one person who has been killed by a VW heating system!
Everybody talks about it, but it has never happened! All of the joints that
can leak are outside of the heat exchangers, and the exhaust pipes that run
through the exchangers are heavy (about 15 pounds heavy) cast iron. The
system is continuously pressurized with fresh air drawn from outside the
car, so it flat isn't possible to build up any concentration of exhaust
gasses inside the car. This is obvious to anyone who has taken the time to
understand how the system works.

One person's nightmare is another person's dream. I only have about 15
years' experience maintaining an air-cooled bug and bus, and they are the
easiest cars to work on I've ever come across. Far easier than the Chevys,
Toyotas, and Nissans I've owned.

Now, it's a given that they are rather primitive compared to modern cars,
but in terms of pure transportation for the buck you can't beat them.

George

Gmlyle@scvnet.com wrote:

Shoot, try to even GET to most components on modern cars. A decade ago,
you could fit a wrench on it - now, you have to pull the whole engine to
get to the timing belt or change the water pump or even get to - well -
anything. Check out a Focus. The engine is crammed in there with inches to
spare.

My old Volvo - I could at least get a wrench in to pull the starter without
needing to take it to the mechanic to pull the engine.

Shocks are another area. Good ones last for years. Cheap ones are
good for 15-20K miles at best and ride like hell. I bought a new flexible
pipe for a toilet(conects the valve with the toilet) and the first one
was cheap chinese junk. the 1/16th inch smaller washer and 1/16 inch larger
than spec connector made it impossible to tighten it enough. I went back
and bought the U.S. made one(same price - just different brand) - and it
fit like a glove the first time.

The lack of electronics and sensors and smog and MAFs and all sorts
of CRAP that are on modern cars alone makes it a great car to work on.

Imagine that - no engine codes to pull. No need for a computer to figure
out why it's not running.

In news:6%hqb.2358$Z25.2156@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net,
Joseph Oberlander <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> being of bellicose
mind posted:
All you have to do is visit the car's assembly line to figure out
best accessibility. Just lift the car off the subframe assembly and
have at it! LOL
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

"Philip ®" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:Y0uqb.186$nz.132@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink .net...
What are the minimal tools needed to "lift the car off the subframe
assembly"?

"New Question" <nq@nq.com> wrote in message
news:houqb.29424$ns.10630@bignews4.bellsouth.net.. .
Air wrench, big lump hammer and a 3ft long pry bar. Not forgetting a
proper lifting chain and loading shovel.

Huw


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.530 / Virus Database: 325 - Release Date: 22/10/03

"New Question" <nq@nq.com> wrote in message
news:houqb.29424$ns.10630@bignews4.bellsouth.net.. .
One Assembly Line. :)

In news:houqb.29424$ns.10630@bignews4.bellsouth.net,
New Question <nq@nq.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
A full sized two post car lift (hoist), and four jack stands. ;-)
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

In news:3faabff4_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> being of bellicose mind posted:
OH... you want portability too! ;-) A capable forklift works
too!
--

~~Philip "Never let school interfere
with your education - Mark Twain"

A keg of beer. Seriously I wouldent try it.

dale
--

"Philip ®" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:Y0uqb.186
What is a "subframe assembly," something on the car or something on an
assembly line?

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:20:00 -0800, <Gmlyle@scvnet.com> wrote:



I've watched a VW shop re-install an engine, but it wasn't 'any' old
floor jack they used, it was a special VW tool that allowed the guy to
hold, raise and then tilt the engine at the correct angle to fit it
though the body cowling. Using a regular floor jack would have had
the engine back on the floor smartly during the tilting stage.

I've also seen guys in Africa wedge an old fruit crate under a Beetle,
and then break the crate away to lower the engine. Once it's low
enough, 4 guys can lift the rest of the car away.....so you don't even
need a floorjack!

David

"David " <djh@btelecom.com> wrote in message
news:3fac0d9e.8454365@extra.news.plus.net...
You've watched, but you've never done it.

I've pulled VW engines a number of times. An ordinary floor jack works just
fine. You just grab the top of the fan shroud and hold the engine balanced
on the jack. The engine weighs very little and most of this weight is down
low so balancing it is very easy. You can easily tilt the engine back and
forth to align the pilot shaft. Yes, the special tool might make it easier,
but it's really no problem with a regular jack.

It's also possible to put a few layers of thick cardboard under the engine,
remove the mounting bolts, and simply give the engine a good jerk backwards
to dislodge it from the transmission, allowing it to drop onto the
cardboard. Not recommended, but in a pinch you can do it.

Early VW buses are by far the easiest. remove the bumper and apron and the
engine comes straight out without lifting the car at all!

George