Hi,

I'm almost 32, and starting to notice expression lines on my forehead
and under my eyes. I did some research and it freaked me out a bit how
much products there are that claim to lessen expression lines.
I wanted to ask you if you have experience with the following
products:

- Dior R 60/80 (serum)
- Dior R-Flash
- E. Lauder's Perfectionist
- H. Rubinstein's Expressionist (serum)
- H. Rubinstein's Prodigy Eyes
- Guerlain Succes Eye Tech
- E. Lauder - Idealist Micro-D Deep Thermal Refinisher

I prefer serums, because I have a tendancy to oily skin, so I don't
want to use cremes that are too rich.
I know I ask a lot, but these products are quite expensive, so I would
really appreciate it if you shared your experiences before I go out
and buy something. Any other suggestions are very welcome too!

Have a nice day

Elisa

I was chosen to test market the new L'Oreal Wrinkle DE-CREASE face cream. They
sent me a full sized jar a few weeks ago. I was sceptical since I've tried
everything--including the new OoO Regenerist line. I tell you--this product is
awesome. It actually has made all the small lines seem to have just
disappeared. I have to put my makeup on with a 5X magnification mirror since I
am practically blind up close. So, of course, I always noticed every single
line on my face--in full living color!!! Well, now there is a huge and
remarkable difference. I keep wondering where the lines went. Too cool! My
face feels smooth and my makeup just glides on. I use this product morning and
night. It is wonderful. I will definitely buy this once it is available, if
it isn't already in the stores. I'm really very impressed since this has shown
more results than AHA's, BHA's or Retin-A Micro. Best of all, it hasn't
irritated or broken out my skin. I love it. HTH.
~Marilyn

I have nothing but HUGE raves for the Christian Dior Capture R60/80 line. I
have the serum, eye cream, and moisturizing cream. All three are wondrous
and do great things for my skin.

I'm turning 29 this year and while my skin is still in tip-top shape (I
pamper it with reliable products and monthly facials), I still have those
lines left over from years of concentrating and studying--both schoolbooks
and must-have purchases! LOL.

At any rate, the Dior has a done a great job smoothing the complexion and
lessening the appearance of the lines on my forehead, and the laughlines
around my mouth.

If you don't want to spend full retail on the products, try checking out
strawberrynet.com. I've purchased from them and they are top-notch!

Leilani

"Els" <els_verheye@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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"Marilyn" <moonchiming@aol.cometmissed> wrote in message
news:20030922230024.29172.00000040@mb-m13.aol.com...
Do you know what is in it?

Though many things help as others have pointed out, expression lines
(or experience lines, as I call them) aren't going anywhere once they
have arrived, and I have learned (after spending the national debt on
the issue) to accept them as part of life's process. Maybe it's
because I have had a life-threatening illness, but a reality check has
made me much calmer.

Janice

Dear Janice

I realise there are a lot of things that are much worse than expression
lines! Some people that are close to me have illnesses that can't be cured.
When I think about them, expression lines are the last thing on my mind! I
have priorities in life, and worrying or nagging all day about signs of
getting older or a pimple on my chin certainly isn't one of them. But this
group is called alt.fashion, so I think it's normal that people discuss
everyday's beauty "problems" and share experiences about skincare stuff and
fashion. It gives us, or me anyway, a chance to take our minds of the
inevitable serious or sad things in life.

Elisa



"Janice Sadowski" <jsadowski@adelphia.net> schreef in bericht
news:kae0nv0eh4vlk2mfunsvlq29u06j36jmql@4ax.com...

x-no-archive: yes

"Janice Sadowski" <jsadowski@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:kae0nv0eh4vlk2mfunsvlq29u06j36jmql@4ax.com...
Good point, Janice. After having said that, I found out that a local doctor
is getting the Aurora laser machine, the one that 03 mentioned. It gives a
photo-facial and he said it gets rid of fine lines. He also said that
laser, no matter what, gets rid of hair too, so you want to make sure you
don't get it done on your eyebrow area.

x-no-archive: yes

"Els" <eyehrev@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s2%bb.36078$CO.1650752@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
I think you'll find that Janice is one of our experts on skincare here.

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:16:57 -0700, "KM" <kthynnyl@com.com> wrote:

Elisa,

I don't know how long you have been here, but apparently not long. We
beat every topic into the ground because that's what the group is for.
No one said you can't talk about whatever you want. I wasn't exactly
aiming my comments at you, but rather at myself since I have chased
wrinkles and been concerned about them for years - very publicly on
this newsgroup. Finally, I realized there isn't anything that is
going to take them away, and chuckled when I thought about how much
time and energy (and MONEY) I have spent.

It's really sad how this group has changed over time. Some things
don't change for the better.

Janice

Hi Marilyn

I saw the product on the website, so it will be available now I think.

http://www.lorealparisusa.com/frames...care/index.asp

Elisa

Hi Elisa,
The products you mentioned, such as Dior, Estee Lauder, Guerlaine and
Helena Rubinstein are all expensive COMMERCIAL products. They are not
going to harm your skin, but they are not going to help much either.
You see,there is a huge difference between "over the counter" stuff
and the stuff professional beauticians use, just like what doctors
prescribe would work much better and faster than what you would find
on the shelves at drugstores.
I use Sothys Paris, a professional line of skin care from France,
which was recommended to me by a professional cosmetologist in France
while I was there on vacation. It really works!!! While not availalbe
retail here in the U.S. (except in pricey salons), I re-supply myself
through a web site, http://www.image-and-beauty.com, which has an
on-line beauty store. What you personally need, is Lift Defense Silky
Creme, which will fight your wrinkles while being very light texture
and never cause breakouts (Lift Defense Enriched Creme would be too
rich for your type of skin). Trust me, you will see your wrinkles go
beginning after 4 weeks! This stuff is real something and SOOO much
more affordable!!! Also, check out Active Contour Age Defying Cream
for eye area - wow!
Good luck!
Tiffani

els_verheye@hotmail.com (Els) wrote in message news:<5f5420b0.0309260338.5fc5440f@posting.google. com>...

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"Tiffani" <tiffani_bloom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e3bd885e.0309270938.545efc17@posting.google.c om...
Scary picture on that site. I wouldn't put my image in her hands.

:-))
I had exactly the same reaction when I saw that picture!

Elisa


"KM" <kthynnyl@com.com> schreef in bericht
news:bl4s6s$81on4$1@ID-203179.news.uni-berlin.de...

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"Els" <eyehrev@heatmail.com> wrote in message
news:Zqndb.44491$Z44.2031749@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
Hehe, hopefully the poster who provided the link is a stranger to her.

I was going to say that while all the department store lines are good, the
cosmeceuticals are better. If I were you I would get TNS Recovery Complex.
It is by Skin Medica. This stuff is supposed to be better than Retin A and
there is absolutely no flaking whatsoever like with the Retin A products.
Another product I have been hearing about is Natropin. I haven't taken
them, but I have heard good things about them. I need to look into this one
a bit further before taking anything like this. It involves growth hormone
therapy, so want to observe this a bit more. Someone I trust recommends it,
that's the only reason I mention it here.
A really good line that I have tried and do recommend is DermaQuest Skin
Therapy.
Here are some links if you want to look up these products. I am not
affiliated with them in any way, but am just like you, always searching for
the holy grail of skincare products to reduce fine lines. I figure I might
as well spend my dollars for stuff that *really* works.
You can get all of these products through a skin therapist or online. A
skin therapist will usually be associated with a Dermatologist or Plastic
Surgeon, but you don't have to see the doctor, you can just go to the skin
therapist, or like I said, you can find many of these items online.
There are many good products in drugstores or department stores, but they
will be no where as good as these products.

http://www.skinmedica.com/smproducts...covery_Complex

http://www.skintherapydq.com/index2.html

http://www.fountofyouth.com/natropin.html

Thanks for the info!! But I'll have to do some research, I'm afraid these
products aren't available overhere. I saw that Skinmedica has an
international line of products, I'll ask them for more information..

Elisa

I have a sample of Helena Rubenstein's Expressionist. As with any skincare
product it will take many
applications to see if it makes a difference. The most I expect from a
product is for it to moisturize
the area, but I will let you know if I think I see anything else.
Audrey

I have some questions about these products, because they're all completely
new to me:

* I understand that cosmeceuticals are skincare products you only get on
prescription, like medicine?
* The procedure to get the products. Skinmedica says you can get them
through a physician. But I'd never go to a physician to ask what to do about
expression lines, for example. I don't know anybody who does that. I would
go for other skin problems, like oily skin or adult acne...
* And what would you call brands like Vichy, Roc, Louis Widmer, etc etc?
Overhere you can only get them at the pharmacist's, but I wouldn't really
call them cosmeceuticals. No prescription necessary, they're just like
department store stuff, and even not that expensive, but for some strange
reason they're only sold at the chemist.

And this is more of an language problem (English isn't my native language),
but I'm gonna ask it anyway: what's the difference between a doctor and a
physician? And a skin therapist and a dermatologist?

Anyway, I mailed to Skinmedica and Skin Therapy to inquire if their products
are available overhere. You made me very curious, I would really like to try
them.


Elisa

x-no-archive: yes

"Els" <eyehrev@heatmail.com> wrote in message
news:i7meb.50095$sM2.1863742@phobos.telenet-> > > I have some questions
about these products, because they're all completely
No, you don't have to have a Rx. If you did, they would be a
pharmaceutical, not a cosmeceutical.


You can get it online without a Physician.

I know physicians use products like Roc, but they aren't Rx. They might
fall into that category (cosmeceutical), as a soothing product, like after a
peel or laser. For that matter, Crisco (vegetable shortening) has been used
for burns.

If a doctor is an MD (medical doctor), they are a physician. A skin
therapist is like an esthetician (facialist) and a dermatologist is a
physician. A skin therapist can do more if they are connected to a
physician and actually work out of a medical doctor's office. My skin
therapist is in a physician's office, she is a licensed skin therapist and
she is a member of the Society of Plastic Surgical Skin Care Specialists.
She is not a registered nurse or a physician's assistant. They would have
more schooling, but not specialized in skincare like she has been. I have
had one very minor peel from her (I saw no difference to be honest) and I
deal with her mostly just to get products. The type of peel I had is one
that people can get routinely every 3 to 6 months. I chose to only get the
one so far and that was in 2001 if I am remembering correctly. I was
recovered by the end of the weekend. It was no biggy and it didn't hurt.

Let me know what you find out and if you need further help looking.

No. Cosmeceuticals aren't actually recognized by the FDA as a cosmetic
category. Cosmeceuticals fall into a sort of "gray" area. They're cosmetic
products, which means little to no real regulation of ingredients or claims,
unless they start promoting real medicinal benefit. If they do begin to promote
actual medical claims, they become prescription cosmetics where there is
tougher regulation. A product like Retin-A has to be able to prove the claims
made about it. Cosmeceuticals get around this by promoting great benefit from
the product without claiming any medical results. Reselling only through
doctors, claiming to be better than Retin-A without actually asserting to match
the same medical results as Retin-A (It's very tricky) and using unproven
ingredients are ways cosmeceuticals get around being classified as
pharmaceuticals and claiming to be somehow clinical.

There's a doctor on this group that would know far more about this than I.
Perhaps he will post and shed more light on this very confusing class of
cosmetics.

The EU has an organization similar to the FDA. Many of their rules and
decisions are the same, but each is stricter in some areas than in others. They
have a webpage where you can download documents to get more information about
how cosmeceuticals are treated in Europe.

Mme_Remy

x-no-archive: yes
Cosmeceuticals are called cosmetics that are drugs, by the FDA. Just
because they do not recognize the word, does not mean that they do not
recognize cosmeceuticals as being cosmetics that are drugs.
I am going to repeat myself here a few times to stress this point, plus I am
putting in the FDA quotes as proof.
All over the counter products are regulated by the FDA. Cosmetics do not
produce a change in the structure of function of the skin. Cosmeceuticals
WILL alter the structure and function and how the skin responds after usage.
They are stronger and better than cosmetics and they do correct the abuses
associated with problem skin. Therefore, the FDA defines thems also as
drugs.
While the FDA does not recognize the word cosmeceutical, the word is used
for those products that the FDA defines as a cosmetic and a drug. If it
says it is a cosmeceutical, that means the FDA defines it as a drug and a
cosmetic at the same time. In that case, toothpaste with flouride would be
a cosmeceutical because it is a drug and it is a cosmetic item. Some drugs
are still OTC. Just because a cosmeceutical is OTC, does not mean it is not
considered a drug by the FDA.
From the FDA website:
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-217.html
COSMECEUTICAL
While the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act does not recognize the term
"cosmeceutical," the cosmetic industry uses this word to refer to cosmetic
products that have medicinal or drug-like benefits.
The Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act defines drugs as those products that cure,
treat, mitigate or prevent disease or that affect the structure or function
of the human body. While drugs are subject to a review and approval process
by FDA, cosmetics are not approved by FDA prior to sale. If a product has
drug properties, it must be approved as a drug.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-218.html
Is It a Cosmetic, a Drug, or Both?
(or Is It Soap?)
The legal difference between a cosmetic and a drug is determined by a
product's intended use. Different laws and regulations apply to each type of
product. Firms sometimes violate the law by marketing a cosmetic with a drug
claim, or by marketing a drug as if it were a cosmetic, without adhering to
requirements for drugs.
How does the law define a cosmetic?
The Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act) defines cosmetics by their
intended use, as "articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or
sprayed on, introduced into, or otherwise applied to the human body...for
cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the
appearance" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(i)]. Among the products included in this
definition are skin moisturizers, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes,
eye and facial makeup preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors,
toothpastes, and deodorants, as well as any material intended for use as a
component of a cosmetic product.
How does the law define a drug?
The FD&C Act defines drugs by their intended use, as "(A) articles intended
for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of
disease..and (B) articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure
or any function of the body of man or other animals" [FD&C Act, sec.
201(g)(1)].
How can a product be both a cosmetic and a drug?
Some products meet the definitions of both cosmetics and drugs. This may
happen when a product has two intended uses. For example, a shampoo is a
cosmetic because its intended use is to cleanse the hair. An antidandruff
treatment is a drug because its intended use is to treat dandruff.
Consequently, an antidandruff shampoo is both a cosmetic and a drug. Among
other cosmetic/drug combinations are toothpastes that contain fluoride,
deodorants that are also antiperspirants, and moisturizers and makeup
marketed with sun-protection claims. Such products must comply with the
requirements for both cosmetics and drugs.
What about "cosmeceuticals"?
The FD&C Act does not recognize any such category as "cosmeceuticals." A
product can be a drug, a cosmetic, or a combination of both, but the term
"cosmeceutical" has no meaning under the law.
How is a product's intended use established?
Intended use may be established in a number of ways. Among them are:
Claims stated on the product labeling, in advertising, on the Internet, or
in other promotional materials. Certain claims may cause a product to be
considered a drug, even if the product is marketed as if it were a cosmetic.
Such claims establish the product as a drug because the intended use is to
treat or prevent disease or otherwise affect the structure or functions of
the human body. Some examples are claims that products will restore hair
growth, reduce cellulite, treat varicose veins, or revitalize cells.
Consumer perception, which may be established through the product's
reputation. This means asking why the consumer is buying it and what the
consumer expects it to do.
Ingredients that may cause a product to be considered a drug because they
have a well known (to the public and industry) therapeutic use. An example
is fluoride in toothpaste.
This principal also holds true for essential oils in fragrance products. A
fragrance marketed for promoting attractiveness is a cosmetic. But a
fragrance marketed with certain "aromatherapy" claims, such as assertions
that the scent will help the consumer sleep or quit smoking, meets the
definition of a drug because of its intended use.
How are the laws and regulations different for cosmetics and drugs?
The following information is not a complete treatment of cosmetic or drug
laws and regulations. It is intended only to alert you to some important
differences between the laws and regulations for cosmetics and drugs in the
areas of approval, good manufacturing practice, registration, and labeling.
You should direct questions regarding laws and regulations for drugs to
CDER.
How approval requirements are different
FDA does not have a premarket approval system for cosmetic products or
ingredients, with the important exception of color additives. Drugs,
however, are subject to FDA approval. Generally, drugs must either receive
premarket approval by FDA or conform to final regulations specifying
conditions whereby they are generally recognized as safe and effective, and
not misbranded. Currently, certain -- but not all -- over-the-counter (OTC)
drugs (that is, non-prescription drugs) that were marketed before the
beginning of the OTC Drug Review (May 11, 1972) may be marketed without
specific approval pending publication of final regulations under the ongoing
OTC Drug Review. Once a regulation covering a specific class of OTC drugs is
final, those drugs must either -
Be the subject of an approved New Drug Application (NDA) [FD&C Act, sec.
505(a) and (b)], or
Comply with the appropriate monograph, or rule, for an OTC drug.
What do these terms mean?
An NDA is the vehicle through which drug sponsors formally propose that FDA
approve a new pharmaceutical for sale and marketing in the U.S. FDA only
approves an NDA after determining, for example, that the data are adequate
to show the drug's safety and effectiveness for its proposed use and that
its benefits outweigh the risks. The NDA system is also used for new
ingredients entering the OTC marketplace for the first time. For example,
the newer OTC products (previously available only by prescription) are first
approved through the NDA system and their 'switch' to OTC status is approved
via the NDA system.
FDA has published monographs, or rules, for a number of OTC drug categories.
These monographs, which are published in the Federal Register, state
requirements for categories of non-prescription drugs, such as what
ingredients may be used and for what intended use. Among the many
non-prescription drug categories covered by OTC monographs are -
acne medications
treatments for dandruff, seborrheic dermatitis, and psoriasis
sunscreens
A note on "new drugs": Despite the word "new," a "new drug" may have been in
use for many years. If a product is intended for use as a drug, no matter
how ancient or "traditional" its use may be, once the agency has made a
final determination on the status of an OTC drug product it must have an
approved NDA or comply with the appropriate OTC monograph to be marketed
legally in interstate commerce. Certain OTC drugs may remain on the market
without NDA approval pending final regulations covering the appropriate
class of drugs.
Where to learn more about NDAs and OTC monographs: If you have questions
about NDAs and OTC monographs, you should address them to CDER. The CDER
Handbook provides an introduction to the drug approval and OTC monograph
processes. Other resources, also available on CDER's Web site, provide
additional information on these subjects.
How good manufacturing practice requirements are different
Good manufacturing practice (GMP) is an important factor in assuring that
your cosmetic products are neither adulterated nor misbranded. However, no
regulations set forth specific GMP requirements for cosmetics. In contrast,
the law requires strict adherence to GMP requirements for drugs, and there
are regulations specifying minimum current GMP requirements for drugs [Title
21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), parts 210 and 211]. Failure to
follow GMP requirements causes a drug to be adulterated [FD&C Act, sec.
501(a)(2)(B)].
How registration requirements are different
FDA maintains the Voluntary Cosmetic Registration Program, or VCRP, for
cosmetic establishments and formulations [21 CFR 710 and 720]. As its name
indicates, this program is voluntary. In contrast, it is mandatory for drug
firms to register their establishments and list their drug products with FDA
[FD&C Act, sec. 510; 21 CFR 207].
How labeling requirements are different
A cosmetic product must be labeled according to cosmetic labeling
regulations. See the Cosmetic Labeling Manual for guidance on cosmetic
labeling. OTC drugs must be labeled according to OTC drug regulations,
including the "Drug Facts" labeling, as described in 21 CFR 201.63.
Combination OTC drug/cosmetic products must have combination OTC
drug/cosmetic labeling. For example, the drug ingredients must be listed
alphabetically as "Active Ingredients," followed by cosmetic ingredients,
listed in order of predominance as "Inactive Ingredients."
And what if it's "soap"?
Soap is a category that needs special explanation. That's because the
regulatory definition of "soap" is different from the way in which people
commonly use the word. Products that meet the definition of "soap" are
exempt from the provisions of the FD&C Act because -- even though Section
201(i)(1) of the act includes "articles...for cleansing" in the definition
of a cosmetic -- Section 201(i)(2) excludes soap from the definition of a
cosmetic.
How FDA defines "soap"
Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA
interprets the term "soap" to apply only when --
The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt
of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the
alkali-fatty acid compounds, and
The product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR
701.20].
If a cleanser does not meet all of these criteria...
If a product intended to cleanse the human body does not meet all the
criteria for soap, as listed above, it is either a cosmetic or a drug. For
example:
If a product --
consists of detergents or
primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids and
is intended not only for cleansing but also for other cosmetic uses, such as
beautifying or moisturizing,
it is regulated as a cosmetic.
If a product --
consists of detergents or
primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids and
is intended not only for cleansing but also to cure, treat, or prevent
disease or to affect the structure or any function of the human body,
it is regulated as a drug.
If a product --
is intended solely for cleansing the human body and
has the characteristics consumers generally associate with soap,
does not consist primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids,
it may be identified in labeling as soap, but it is regulated as a cosmetic.


"MmeRemy" <mmeremy@aol.comedy> wrote in message
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