On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:22:19 -0500, "Brooks Gregory"
<brooks@swbtnet.com> wrote:

snip..

My error! I dispute your definition. It is not merely the movement
from one quintile to a higher one, but also those moving from one
quintile to a lower one. Let alone that most folks wind up staying in
one quintile. What is needed is a reference and explanation for your
claims that it is the most reliable marker as well as what "it sunk to
its lowest level" means and what is currently occuring (esp. in re the
huge increase in unemployment and the tax breaks for the rich).

I don't accept YOUR spin that there is an absolute truth.

George M. Carter

"GMCarter" <gmc0@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3ef833fd.834359@news.verizon.net...
It's not my definition. It is one widely accepted by economist, especially
those at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, doing the study.

It is not merely the movement
They are not my claims, they are the claims of those at the Federal Reserve
Bank of Boston, doing the study.

Assuming that 2+2 could equal 3, I suppose you're on to something there.

But I'll tell you something I think is occuring. I think we are about to see
a tremendous increase in money going to the US Treasury. Why? Because of two
things. First, unless congress changes it, the Alternative Minimum Tax is
going to reach to such a low level of income earners that virtually every
one of them will be having to pay it, and that will result in a back door
approach to a "Flat Tax" system with no deductions, exemptions or
exceptions. This money alone would probably balance the budget and pay off
the national debt in perhaps 15 years. But, that's not the half of it. Soon,
the baby boomers will start retiring. All of those pension plans, retirement
funds and deferred investments will be coming into play. Guess what, all
that money gets taxed as regular income. I bet you don't have any idea how
much money that will be.

Just based on what is in those investments currently, CBO projections
indicate a figure of 12 TRILLION dollars. That does not take into account
the billions still being poured into those investments annually.

I think the current administration, congress and bureaucracy have convinced
themselves that these figures are real and in a collusive effort will do all
they can to install permanent receptacles (favorite programs) to place those
funds.

If economic destruction looms in the future, it will be a cooperative
effort. Playing Democrats and Republicans is just a more advanced game of
Cowboys and Indians but it's still played by people with juvenille thinking.


--
"To Compel a man to furnish funds for the
propagation of ideas he disbelieves and
abhors is sinful and tyrannical"
Thomas Jefferson

The best way to fund our government
is for the employers to send the peoples
paychecks to the IRS. Then the IRS
can send back to the people what we
don't need.
Paraphrasing LBJ, 1969 in a speech
to the South Texas College of Law

Brooks Gregory

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 06:53:33 -0500, "Brooks Gregory"
<brooks@swbtnet.com> wrote:

snip....>
What study? If they are "doing" the study, I take there are no data
yet--but if it has been completed (or a certain phase of it), then I
suppose it has the data reflecting your claim of what happened under
Clinton. Perhaps you would share those data.

This is a curious claim. Regardless of the relative merits of an
income tax--and the anti-progressive nature of a flat tax--on what
basis do you make this claim? I'm not saying you're incorrect, just
that I would like to see some data. Lord knows, a lot of the treasury
has been bankrupted by enormous trade deficits and massive tax cuts
taht benefit the rich--while the effect of increasing state and city
taxes increases the burden on the poorest. Indeed, an article noted
that California's health care system is collapsing under this fiscal
nightmare (see below).

I would be delighted to see figures that support this very rosy
picture! It is more optimistic certainly than what is currently
occurrng, given the damaging effects of HIV/AIDS on global economics,
the pop in the U.S. stock market bubble, the potential for a popping
in the housing market, etc.

Also, as I understand it, upon retirement, a lot of the income for the
elderly is not necessarily taxable income, particularly for the
wealthiest. But I am ignorant about a lot of that. I can only wonder
about all the taxable 401Ks? the revenue for which has been
significantly depleted.


What CBO projections?

This statement is unclear to me.

No argument there.

George M. Carter

Whoa, that was a little high-handed. So George made a mistake in
a newsgroup. Big deal. But his point that he actually made, you
leave unaddressed -- that you use a percentage rise in quintile
standing as a measure of "true economic well-being" with no
justification. It's just "accepted". Maybe to Milt Friedman and
friends but they are not everybody, are they? In fact, some would
say that they are not the wisest among us.

Sage

"Sage" <sagenewsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3EF9213B.5000504@yahoo.com...
Well gee. There are some Aborigines that do not accept the fact the sun sets
in the West.

Once again, as I previously noted, apparently the Federal Reserve Bank of
Boston accepts that measure and they did the study and they made the call.
They are in the phone book up there if you have a question.


--
During a 35 year long career in the wild
and wacky world of political consulting,
I must have attended over a thousand
"Executive Board" meetings of county,
state and national political parties. The
statement most often made by a
candidate to a well heeled contributor
was "I'll find a place for you. If not, I'll
make one". Think about that.


Brooks Gregory

"Brooks Gregory" <brooks@swbtnet.com> wrote

You mean back when we saw eight consecutive years of growth
in employment and wages, the first actual drop in poverty in ten
years and the greatest economic gains for black Americans since
the government began keeping statistics?

Yeah, gosh, things were just *Awful* under Clinton, with people
looking forward to ever increasing employment opportunities
and spending power.... SHEESH!

"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JmlKa.16528$Fy6.6027@sccrnsc03...
Does that change what the Federal Reserve study shows?


--
During a 35 year long career in the wild
and wacky world of political consulting,
I must have attended over a thousand
"Executive Board" meetings of county,
state and national political parties. The
statement most often made by a
candidate to a well heeled contributor
was "I'll find a place for you. If not, I'll
make one". Think about that.


Brooks Gregory

"Brooks Gregory" <brooks@swbtnet.com> wrote

What study? Cites, please.

And, oh, it demonstrates *Exactly* what right-wing propaganda doesn't
show. Which is to say, we were much better off before the one-party
state under George Dubya Bush came into existence.

"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_RmKa.18128$XG4.14794@rwcrnsc53...
Naw. There's nothing left to see here. Move on.


--
During a 35 year long career in the wild
and wacky world of political consulting,
I must have attended over a thousand
"Executive Board" meetings of county,
state and national political parties. The
statement most often made by a
candidate to a well heeled contributor
was "I'll find a place for you. If not, I'll
make one". Think about that.


Brooks Gregory

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 06:07:40 -0500, "Brooks Gregory"
<brooks@swbtnet.com> wrote:

This is the argument of a troll. I looked on their website and did not
see the study you mentioned, which you did not name. But I did see
numerous indices of economic activity that are measured. To suggest
that one index of measurement represents the absolute truth and
suggests anything at all about where the world is heading is stupid.

They have an interesting website too. See
http://www.bos.frb.org/

George M. Carter

This is an excellent synopsis. We could perhaps send him a synopsis on
his lies about HIV/AIDS. Right now, I think we SHOULD be asking that
people donate money to Clinton's AIDS project. It will get drugs to
people. The Global Fund is a bureaucratic morass that will undoubtedly
be further sabotaged by Tommy Thompson.

George M. Carter

****
Truth Is The Weapon Of Bush's Self-destruction:
The Superpower Of Peace Has The Ultimate Force by Harvey Wasserman

"If we look at history, we find that in time, humanity's love of
peace, justice and freedom always triumphs over cruelty and
oppression." --The 14th Dalai Lama

"The Truth shall set you free." -- Jesus Christ

The Bush assault is foundering on the shoals of Truth.

The Republicans have seized control of the American judicial,
legislative and executive branches. Their immensely effective
corporate mass media misinforms, misleads and manipulates. They
control the world's most powerful army, and are glad to use it without
provocation.

Having stolen the election of 2000, Bush's minions are rigging
America's voting machines and erasing countless suspected Democrats
from voter rolls nationwide.

Their goal is to shock and awe the opposition into extinction.

If "image is everything," Bush sits atop a dictatorial fortress, not
likely to fall soon.

But history teaches that, ultimately, Truth is more powerful than
image: All the people can't be fooled all the time.

Globally, George W. Bush has become history's most hated US
president. After being gifted near-total support by Osama bin Laden,
Bush has sunk to unprecedented scorn. In the global village,
Americans unelected chief is under quarantine.

Why? Because outside the United States, the Truth is being told.
The world media and the internet seethe with serious reporting and
outrage against escalating deceit.

In the US, the corporate media has polluted the information flow. So
we are compelled, more than ever, to compile and refute the lies, and
to spread their antidote far and wide.

Our arsenal of Truth includes:

SADDAM'S WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION: Obviously, if he had them, he
would have used them. It took years for the lies about the Vietnamese
non-attack at Tonkin Gulf to unravel; it's taken mere days to
establish that Bush blatantly lied in no less a venue than the State
of the Union. Who will believe him next time?

SADDAM'S NUKES: He had none, and Colin Powell lied to the United
Nations and the world based on undergraduate forgeries. Who will
believe him next time?

BOGUS INTELLIGENCE: The Republicans forced intelligence operatives to
sacrifice their credibility to provide a pretext for war. Who will
believe them next time?

THE REAL REASONS FOR WAR: Bush used terrorism, WMDs and (incredibly)
human rights as pretexts for war in Iraq and Afghanistan; but
everything since has confirmed what the world knew all along: its
about oil and the pipelines to carry it, with some Christian
fanaticism thrown in;

SPINNING PRIVATE LYNCH: This contrived mocku-drama, complete with
threats from the Pentagon against reporters (such as Robert Scheer of
the Los Angeles Times) who document what really happened, was in fact
a tale of Iraqi bravery and compassion.

TOP GUN: Bush's handlers blew a million taxpayer dollars to spin an
aircraft carrier so Bush could play Tom Cruise. That jump suit now
symbolizes chickenhawk hypocrisy.

AN AWOL WAR RECORD: Bush deserted his cushy National Guard unit, then
joked that raising twins was harder than being in combat, which he
never saw;

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?: Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq has been
liberated or conquered; the "dancing in the streets" promised by the
war's perpetrators has become a desert Vietnam, where locals and
Americans continue to die;

SEPTEMBER 11: The terrorist attacks occurred while George W. Bush was
officially responsible for protecting the American people; his bitter
fight against a full Congressional investigation belies something very
serious to hide. > FLAUNTING TRAGEDY: To the horror of many 9/11
victims' families, Bush has manipulated the terrorist attacks into
what he called a personal political "trifecta," desecrating the
sacrifice of 3,000 innocent civilians;

ATTACKING THE HEROES: While praising police and firefighter heroes,
Bush slashed their benefits and attacked their (and other) unions;

ATTACKING THE VETERANS: On the brink of the Iraq attack, the
Republicans slashed veterans benefits by nearly $30 billion;

HOMELAND SECURITY: To fund tax cuts for the rich, the security of
America's ports, airports and borders has been compromised, and they
may be less safe than before 9/11.

INTERNAL SECURITY: Using 9/11 as pretext, Bush has shredded the Bill
of Rights, with no gain for public safety, but creating a powerful
weapon against his opponents;

OFFICIAL SECRECY: Bush is the most secretive US president ever; his
relentless campaign against open government belies much to hide;

HOME OF THE FREE: While claiming to spread "American freedom," Bush
keeps two million citizens in jail, a quarter of all the world's
prisoners, forty percent of them held on victimless drug charges;

GUANTANAMO: While claiming to spread "American freedom," Bush has
established a concentration camp on conquered land where human rights
are shredded in contempt for global treaties, and where a death
chamber may soon be added;

THE TAX CUT: Selling a handout to the rich as a stimulus package, and
lying about its true cost, Bush surreptitiously doomed the Social
Security, Medicare and Medicaid programs that have been the backbone
of American social democracy;

JOBS JOBS JOBS: Bush's mantra about job creation has proved a hollow
lie as the economy continues to slide, with Hooveresque joblessness
and homelessness soaring in traditional Republican style;

LIMITED GOVERNMENT: While campaigning against "big government" Bush
has pushed official spying into every corner of American private life,
including reproductive rights and our ability to choose what to smoke
and whom to marry; in fact Bush supports limiting the government's
power only when it comes to regulating his corporate cronies;

AN AMERICAN THEOCRACY?: Empowered by the hellish marriage of
corporate power with right-wing Christian fundamentalism, separation
of Church and state has disappeared in a global "Crusade" that uses
taxpayer money to support reactionary churches and the concept of an
American Ayatollah;

ARMAGEDDON OVERDUE?: Bush's foreign policy , especially in the Middle
East, features a psychotic sectarian belief in an "end of days"
scenario where a chosen few with a peculiar view of Christ ascend to a
very private Heaven, leaving the rest of us to burn;

STATES RIGHTS: While arguing for states rights, Bush sends federal
troops to arrest harmless pot smokers in states that have legalized
medical marijuana;

THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT: While endorsing a wide range of government
functions (like providing security), Bush really supports just three:
funding the military, subsidizing client corporations, and suppressing
opposition;

A FREE MARKET ECONOMY: While mouthing the platitudes of Adam Smith,
Bush demands huge bailouts for nuclear power and the other obsolete,
polluting industries that fund his campaigns;

EDUCATION: While claiming to support education, Bush is robbing Head
Start to fund further tax cuts for his fellow rich;

Stewart seem a piker;

A POPULAR PRESIDENT?: Bush lost the 2000 election by 500,000 votes
and his approval ratings regularly sag between crises, but the
corporate > media grovels over his alleged "popularity" while refusing
to pursue > anything that would seriously damage him;

AN AFFABLE PRESIDENT: Bush's good-ol-boy veneer hides the meanness of
spirit and coarse ruthlessness essential to a corporate-fundamentalist
TEFLON PRESIDENT?: Like Ronald Reagan (and unlike Bill Clinton) the
media refusal to pursue damaging (and felonious) presidential misdeeds
guarantees Bush a free ride. Or does it?

Bush's litany of lies grows daily. In the short term, they
demoralize the opposition.

The mainstream media does its part by dismissing those abundant,
articulate critics who don't, like Paul Wellstone, conveniently wind
up dead.

But in a world that demands non-violent resistance, there is no
alternative to perseverance, and no greater weapon than an adversary's
own lies.

It took a world war and forty million deaths to rid the world of the
Nazi plague. Thus far Bush has killed thousands to conquer
Afghanistan and Iraq, and shows no compunction about killing more.

His environmental and other policies have doomed millions worldwide,
and threaten the life support systems on which we all depend.

But the Superpower of Truth can number his days.

It's been said a lie can circle the global before Truth gets its
boots on.

But once shod, Truth and only Truth can crush tyrants, kick down
prison doors and walk the world back into the sunshine of freedom.

Bush himself has handed an organized, focused and optimistic
Superpower of Peace the tools it needs to get stomping.

So let's roll.

Harvey Wasserman is senior editor of www.freepress.org and author of
'THE LAST ENERGY WAR' (Seven Stories Press). He helped start the No
Nukes movement against atomic power.

All content © 1970-2003 The Columbus Free Press

I accept the measure as existing and as representing something,
but not as representing conclusively or being the best indicator
of "economic well being". Just because a Federal Reserve Bank
that I can see on my horizon declares something, doens't mean I
have any more reason to agree with it, does it? After all this
institution is part and parcel of the system that is built upon
the very logic that would deem the indicator to be a good one.
However, I have fundamental difference with that system's
internal logic. Your citing the FRB to support the worth of the
indicator doesn't mean much because it is rather
self-referential, in my opinion. You didn't give a substantial
argument on a philosophical level, but rather you said "this
insitution deems it to be a good indicator" -- but still I can
disagree with that institution (and many would say I do so with
good reason).

In a parallel, as a research project, two years ago I read 500
pages of randomly sampled World Bank economics papers. While I
understand the internal logic of what they are saying (I was once
into F Hayek), I also disagree with their a priori assumptions
about the nature and possibilities of human life, and what is
good or desirable in human society. Reading World Bank policy
working papers has also given me insight into the extent to which
the language of economics as a Western discipline can be made to
support whatever conclusion the author wants to support.

So in response to your snideness and know-it-all-ness (as I
perceive it -- and I don't say this maliciously but caringly for
I have a thick skin), I ask you to open your mind and stop
slinging insults to anyone who doesn't agree with you. Maybe
there is more to it than plain stupidity. Maybe you're also
missing some knowledge and wisdom about the world. I know that I
do not know everything, and that other people also have valuable
perspectives that I can learn from. Those are two very important
things that I do know.

Sage