Wow. Seems a guy can't ask a question around here without being razzed
incessantly.

Unfortunately, many people have had strokes due to a "haircut". The chairs
that are used for washing your hair have the nice cozy neck brace. This nice
cozy neck brace has been shown to be the wrong shape. It puts pressure on
all the wrong places and cuts off circulation.
I'm sure a quick search will turn up results on the net.

--

Virginia

"JLF" <revfordham@newnorth.net> wrote in message
news:v4bvbv9lggih49@corp.supernews.com...

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:45:25 -0700, Virginia wrote:

And violent manipulation of the head, as described by the original poster,
can also cause minor and not so minor traumas to the cervical vertebrae,
which could cause the kinds of symptoms he reported. He should have posted to
a neurology NG, he would have received a more sympathetic hearing IMO.

Anyhow, I wouldn't go back to that hair stylist.


--
Wolf Kirchmeir, Blind River ON Canada
"Nature does not deal in rewards or punishments, but only in consequences."
(Robert Ingersoll)

That's an extremely valid question. I have not heard of strokes occuring
during the actual haircutting itself, however, I have heard of strokes
occuring when the person is actually getting there hair washed in the sinks.
Some epileptics will have seizures triggered during the actual manipulation
and "cutting" of the hair. That has been reported a few times in the
literature.

NMF



"Virginia" <biteme@nospammyme.org> wrote in message
news:vp2v2ck3riihaf@corp.supernews.com...

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 10:45:25 -0700, Virginia wrote:

Yeah, I had a fatal stroke. But then I got better, so it was cool.

Time out!
A f***ing haircut!

Are we not built well enough, evolved long enough to be able to withstand a
vigorous hairwash?
I'd understand complaints about particularly strong shampoos or the stylists
BO problem.... but a big bad comb???
The chair is uncomfy... the comb was tough, he/she jiggled my fragile neck
</weep>.
Get a grip people.
Out of curiosity... what did you say to the butcher while they had you in a
half-nelson?

Jay

In bionet.neuroscience NMF <neil.fournier@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Could you give one literature reference? Just one to start with. One
only. If possible.

Dag Stenberg

"Dag Stenberg" <dag.stenberg@nospam.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in message news:<bn5f3c$cpe$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...


Sorry to barge in... never heard of a search engine Dag? Took me 10
seconds to find this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1220931.stm

<START QUOTE>

Simply rubbing a small area of skin may be enough to trigger epileptic
seizures in certain patients.

Research in the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry
details a number of cases in which patting different parts of the body
brought on attacks.

In one, a 31-year-old man found that having a haircut seemed to lead
to a seizure.

He later realised that if a particular part of his head was rubbed for
10 seconds or more, this caused the problem.

He tended to have seizures every day - but by inducing one prior to
having his hair cut, he could go to the barbers without fear of it
happening again.

In other cases, seizures were induced by patting the shoulder, or even
rubbing the left leg.

UK experts say it is possible to help patients who have specific
triggers for their epilepsy by training them to adapt their behaviour
accordingly.

Professor Stephen Brown, a professor of neuropsychiatry at the
University of Plymouth, said: "I'm not in the least bit surprised by
this research.

"This is what we call an evoked seizure - and a great many people with
epilepsy suffer from them.

"For some, the trigger is listening to music, or perhaps even reading
or knitting."

He said the principal way of treating these patients was a process of
"life hygiene" - to find the threshold of behaviour which leads to
such attacks.

<END QUOTE>

In bionet.neuroscience neepy <dsutherland7@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, I was looking for serious evidence, so I was looking in Medline -
and nothing came up. The problem with the BBC article of 21 March, 2001
is that is does mention "Research in the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery
and Psychiatry" but not the issue or authors.

Knowing this, however, it was possible to find the reference in the
April issue of JNNP 2001; 70: 541 - 543. The authors are K Kanemoto, Y
Watanabe, T Tsuji, M Fukami, and J Kawasaki, from the Kansai Regional
Epilepsy Center, Utano National Hospital, Kyoto, Japan, and the National
Epilepsy Center, Shizuoka Higashi Hospital, Shizuoka, Japan, c Shinjo
Hospital, Wakayama, Japan. The paper is titled "Rub epilepsy:
a somatosensory evoked reflex epilepsy induced by prolonged cutaneous
stimulation."
The authors mention that "As long ago as 1863, John Hughlings
Jackson described a case in which touching the thumb would bring on a
fit. Later, in 1910, Woodcock and Edin described a boy who went into
epileptic fits repeatedly when his sister removed the stocking from his
right leg." However, previously somatosensory-evoked epilepsy with a
surprise element was not discriminated from such with no surprise, which
these authors rename "rub epilepsy".
Four own cases of rub epilepsy are described: one 35-y-old woman with
seizures triggered by rubbing the left shoulder, a 21-y-old woman with a
tickling sensation diagnozed on the basis of the EEG as epileptiform,
and induced by rubbing the left leg, and a 44-y-old man, suffering
from paroxysmal sensations of scratchiness in the chest and motor seizures
since 18-y. This last patient "at the age of 31, the patient noted,
incidentally while receiving a haircut, that the throbbing sensation in the
left vertex could be provoked by the rubbing of a well circumscribed area in
the head...Seizures occurred every day, but the patient noticed that
after a self induced seizure, the trigger zone was no longer effective
in producing further seizures for several hours, which permitted him to
continue his activities and to tolerate hair cutting." After 34 years age,
"the seizures occurred spontaneously, without any provoking stimuli, every 10 to 15
minutes... "

Compare this to the BBC news:
The fourth patient was a 45-y-old woman whose "Daytime attacks
were provoked by brushing teeth or eating solid foods, and could be
induced by brushing the upper or lower teeth on either side of her
mouth."

The point of the article is that touch can induce attacks is some
epileptics even without the startle effect.

The article, as found at
http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/cont...urnalcode=jnnp
was quite interesting. Tactile-ecoked epilepsy has repeatedly been described in
the literature.The cutting of the hair was, of course, not the main
issue.

Dag Stenberg

In bionet.neuroscience NMF <neil.fournier@sympatico.ca> wrote:
As there is an article in the April issue of the Journal of Neurology,
Neurosurgery and Psychiatry 2001; 70: 541 - 543, decsribing one patient
whose attacks were provoked by touching a certain location of the scalp
while having a haircut, I now agree that one case has been documented.

Dag Stenberg

"neepy" <dsutherland7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4bd1f7c.0310220707.421cf685@posting.google.c om...
| "Dag Stenberg" <dag.stenberg@nospam.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in
message news:<bn5f3c$cpe$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>...
| > In bionet.neuroscience NMF <neil.fournier@sympatico.ca> wrote:
| > > Some epileptics will have seizures triggered during the actual
manipulation
| > > and "cutting" of the hair. That has been reported a few times
in the
| > > literature.
| >
| > Could you give one literature reference? Just one to start with.
One
| > only. If possible.
| >
| > Dag Stenberg
|
|
|
| Sorry to barge in... never heard of a search engine Dag? Took me
10
| seconds to find this:
|
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1220931.stm
|
| <START QUOTE>
|
| Simply rubbing a small area of skin may be enough to trigger
epileptic
| seizures in certain patients.
|
| Research in the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry
| details a number of cases in which patting different parts of the
body
| brought on attacks.
|
| In one, a 31-year-old man found that having a haircut seemed to
lead
| to a seizure.
| [...]

Obviously, in the case you cite, brain damage
isn't caused by the "haircut' [the external stim-
ulus].

The external stimulus triggers a previously-exist-
ing condition [which can result in "brain damage"].

What the query under discussion entails is finding
an example of a haircut causing brain damage
=directly= - no intervening stuff.

Fire up your "search engine" :-]

ken

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:48:14 GMT, KP_PC wrote:

I disagree. The OP didn't phrase his question carefully enough, is all. Or
else you're picking nits for the sake of argument, which ill becomes you.


--
Wolf Kirchmeir, Blind River ON Canada
"Nature does not deal in rewards or punishments, but only in consequences."
(Robert Ingersoll)

Dag Stenberg writes:

Where's the surprise here? In theory, _any_ specific type of brain
activity can be a trigger for a seizure, depending on the exact part of
the brain that is damaged in the first place. Thus, just about any
stimulus is a potential trigger, depending only on the individual
patient.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Neowulf (Aaron VonDerheide) writes:

Be careful in the future, as the mortality is high for chronic fatal
strokes.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

"Wolf Kirchmeir" <wwolfkir@sympatico.can> wrote in message
news:jbysxveflzcngvpbpna.hn7tw94.pminews@news1.sym patico.ca...
| On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:48:14 GMT, KP_PC wrote:
|
| >What the query under discussion entails is finding
| >an example of a haircut causing brain damage
| >=directly= - no intervening stuff.
| >
| >Fire up your "search engine" :-]
|
| I disagree. The OP didn't phrase his question
| carefully enough, is all. Or else you're picking
| nits for the sake of argument, which ill becomes
| you.

I agree with you - on all counts.

I was actually reacting to the way another poster
jumped Dag.

But, while on a trip to a bookstore this afternoon,
this 'haircut' stuff kept popping into the 'interstitial
spaces' of my browsing.

There are many analogues that occur in everyday
experience [not to mention the instance in which
the barber gives the guy a noogie :-]

I'm addressing my insufficiently-thought-through
statement with respect to 'direct' cause and effect.

But what about instances in which prisoners of war
must exist in harsh environments, including, perhaps,
torture [as was the case for U. S. POW's during the
Viet Nam War]?

Everything correlated exists on a continuum that
includes this 'haircut' stuff.

I mean, it's obvious from commonplace experience
that seemingly-indirect environmental conditions
can have cummulative effects within nervous systems.

Think about the Child who grows to maturity in an
abusive household, or in an environment that's
generally deprived relative to 'normal' developmental
environments.

The Child's nervous system is literally damaged by
her/his experiencing of the abusive and/or deprived
conditions.

And all those around the Child [the pols, etc.] 'excuse'
themselves by saying, "Hey, it's none of my business."

Such 'excuse'-making is right-there, =in= the cummula-
tive effects that accrue within the Child's nervous system
as the Child grows to maturity.

And, then, when the Child ventures forth with his/her
behavior that is adapted to the abusive/deprived
environmental conditions that the Child experienced,
but maladapted with respect to 'normal' environmental
conditions, 'society' locks the person up.

There are no 'indirect' causes.

Experience matters.

Extreme experience can, and does, damage nervous
systems.

Everything correlated exists on a continuum that
includes this 'haircut' stuff.

Even Ethics is included.

Think about the Barber who doesn't know that his
Client has this hair-tussling-triggered epilepsy.

"Snip, snip, snip..."

And the Client has a seizure.

"But the Barber didn't know."

He does know, now, through his own experience.

If he cuts the guy's hair again, without taking precautions.
then whose nervous system is it that's most-obviously
Damaged [and Damaging]?

The Same-Stuff exists all over the place during 'normal'
interactive dynamics.

There was a Report on NPR's =All Things Considered=
this evening that discussed the way that some 'financial'
folks were dealing under-the-table in after hours mutual
fund trading.

Same-old, same-old.

So the question that I 'thought' was a light-hearted [or
mean-spirited] jest, is actually rather profound in the
scope of its applicability.

It exists =everywhere= within Human interactive dynamics.

Even in my short-shrifted prior reply.

k. p. collins

"KP_PC" <k.p.collins@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:IMYlb.12225$Ec1.1098300@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
| [...]

| There was a Report on NPR's =All Things Considered=
| this evening that discussed the way that some 'financial'
| folks were dealing under-the-table in after hours mutual
| fund trading.
|
| Same-old, same-old.
| [...]

"Citigroup Unit Fires 4 Brokers in Timing Probe
By REUTERS

Published: October 23, 2003"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/23/bu...IRE-BARNY.html

Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

Not if treated promptly with iron chelation.

Sorry I did not respond to your earlier request for cited reference to the
epileptic triggers during haircutting or scalp stimulation connection. (I
was attending a conference). The J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry (either 2001
or 2002?) reference was one that I was referring too. (I do not believe it
is a common occurrence and has only been reported a few times in the
literature). I have seen mention of it in a rather expensive
medical/neurology textbook Epilepsy: a comprehensive textbook by ed. Engel
and ed. Pedley (in one of the three volumes but I can't remember which
one). Also an extremely old book, Clinical Treatise of the Diseases of the
Nervous System by Rosenthal (from 1879), mentioned seizure occurrence while
men were having haircuts and/or beard trims. The link isn't all that
surprising when one considers the dense interconnections between the dentate
gyrus and hippocampal formation (a relatively unstable and "epileptic" prone
region in most limbic/temporal lobe epileptic patients) with the ventral
tier thalamic structures (an area innervated by afferents containing
propioceptive and "touch" signals as they ascend along the neuroaxis before
finally reaching areas 1,2,3 or area 4). The current concept is that
stimulation of the ventral tier or associated regions of the thalamus could
end up eliciting greater stimulation to already electrically labile limbic
regions causing bouts of epileptiform activity to trigger (the typical
connection between these structures is generally in inhibitory and
progressive break down in this inhibitory process can lead to disinhibition
or "excitation").

"Dag Stenberg" <dag.stenberg@nospam.helsinki.fi.invalid> wrote in message
news:bn7vg8$rf9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...

In bionet.neuroscience Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, the authors apparently want to define "rub epilepsy" as "a type of reflex
epilepsy induced by prolonged or repetitive cutaneous stimulation in a circumscribed
area of the body"....
and
"Rub epilepsy is proposed as a separate clinical entity, clearly demarcated
from other somatosensory evoked reflex epilepsies such as startle and tooth
brushing epilepsy."

This is bescause "until recently, somatosensory evoked epilepsy without
an element of surprise has been confused with other types of
somatosensory evoked epilepsy such as startle epilepsy."
They seem to think that this is clinically important.

They further propose that the "seizure symptomatology of rub epilepsy indicates
a propagation of epileptic discharges from the postcentral gyrus to the
supplementary motor area".
(Kanemoto et al., J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 2001;70:541-543)

Dag Stenberg

"KP_PC" <k.p.collins@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<OlOlb.190090$0v4.14730144@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Dag asked for a reference to a haircut triggering an epileptic
seizure. Learn to read.

Only if your a middle-aged "WoodStock" era 60's Democrat loony lefty
liberal.....running for president LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!