G'day G'day Folks,

An elephant briefly escaped from a zoo. The facts as best we can
ascertain them are that a female elephant rolled a 200 kg (440 lb) log
through a high voltage security fence. The rolling log shorted out the
fence and rendered it harmless. The elephant walked out through the
gap in the fence.

Obviously an interesting discussion ensued between the reporter and
the zoo keepers. The zoo keepers were at pains to point out that the
report should NOT SAY "The elephant planned her escape."

This would be an anthropomorphic error, attributed to an animal human
characteristics. In the zoo keeper's opinion elephants were not that
clever. They had to be trained to roll logs. The more the discussion
continued the clearer it became that the zoo keeper saw the elephant
world model as conditioning, more conditioning and more conditioning.
Reasoning didn't appear to play any role.

It occurred to me as I read the article that anthropomorphic errors
could be of more than one type. The zoo keeper's response appeared to
be a highly conditioned response. I wondered how many years went into
the conditioning and how much it cost. So IMHO there exists at least
one other class of anthropomorphic error, attributing reason or other
esoteric attributes to humans when simple animal behaviour would
suffice.

Of more relevance to alt.support.diabetes I wondered how different
people really are to other animals. Many people have made the choice
to lose weight. They roll a few metaphorical 200 kg logs and
miraculously the thin person walks out from the elephant enclosure.

WOW. Humans have this wonderful attribute that zoo keepers would deny
even elephants with their well authenticated reputation for long term
memory ... the ability to plan.

Stories in parallel universes sometimes converge more often than we
would like. The elephant found the freedom of a large park but didn't
know what to do. She wandered around a bit till eventually "her
extended family" as the zoo keepers considered themselves rounded her
up and gently led her back to the world she knew. Whatever.

If you believe in the human attribute of making and executing a plan
then one thing is certain. If you plan to lose weight it mustn't be
an end in itself. One must always ask the vital question,

"What will I do WHEN I ESCAPE?"

"What is the desired outcome beyond the methodology?"

Best wishes,







--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:48:02 +1300, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

Thank you, Quentin. You always encourage me to think.

BettyB.

--
BettyB -- www.flamingo-code.com
bettyb at flamingo dash code dot com
"If wishes were Saabs, all type A's would ride"
by Tom Darbyshire & Stephan Underhill

Hi Quentin:
An interesting analogy. Animal Farm anyone? Or Animal Farm in more ways
than one.

Frank

Someone should introduce your elephant to the LA Zoo's Gracie the chimp who
managed her 4th escape last week.
The zoo keepers here say she's highly intelligent (for a chimpanzee), very
curious, the leader of her particular pack and the cost of keeping ahead of her
would bankrupt the zoo........Nothing trained about HER escapades.
Nan, Type 2

This post not CC'd by email
On 24 Jan 2004 22:22:15 GMT, naneklund@aol.com (Nan Eklund) wrote:

G'day G'day Nan,

Next weeks news flash.

Gracie escapes riding on elephant. A chimpanzee famous for four
previous escapes has pulled off her ultimate stunt. Riding an elephant
deported from Auckland Zoo in New Zealand the pair orchestrated their
bid for freedom. The elephant weighing in at one ton rolled a four
hundred pound log through the electric security fence shorting it out
and rendering it harmless. Despite extensive searches involving state
police and troopers the pair have not been sighted since their
remarkable feats were captured on a security video camera. The
animals could easily have avoided the security camera but apparently
Gracie was determined to make an appropriate farewell gesture.
The security sound system should be repaired by tomorrow. The last
recorded sound before the equipment failed came from the elephant
blowing what sounded altogether too much like a raspberry.

The post card received from the Bahamas with the enigmatic messages,

"I had a plan," I_never_forget.

"I have a clear vision of what to do when I succeeded," Gracie.

is being studied by police handwriting and cryptography experts.

Another postcard followed a week later.

"To embrace tiger, let go of elephant," Gracie.

Police experts said they were baffled. All they could say at this
moment in time was it seemed deeply meaningful

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Quentin, I wish I understood what you say, but , as pertains to
elephants, I absolutely believe she planned her escape. I dont believe
her miknd said I will plan my escape, but some kind of animal thought
process was going on that allowed her to do this. jmo, but I believe
animals are smareter than we think. At least,. my granddoggy Rudy is.
lol

Loretta

--
In tribute to the United States of America and the State
of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and
terrorism.

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:03:58 -0500 (EST), Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta
Eisenberg) posted:

Agreed, animals are VERY smart, I think that, too. :-)

Linda

Bushisms:
"I've got very good relations with President Mubarak
and Crown Prince Abdallah and the King of Jordan,
Gulf Coast countries."
-George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 29, 2003

Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet
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This post not CC'd by email
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:03:58 -0500 (EST), Ronetta@webtv.net (Loretta
Eisenberg) wrote:

G'day G'day Loretta,

I aim to almost make sense. Almost making sense encourages
listeners to think more deeply, find their own meanings and create
understandings from their OWN experiences.

I think she put one and one together and for once didn't make one.

Same here. The alternative is to believe it was an accident that she
rolled the log at the fence. Then seeing the fence was no longer there
she walked out. It could have happened that way and perhaps it did.

Now isn't that interesting. We know animals are not supposed to be
smart because we have been told that so often. Or we might have made
some observations that have shown us they don't behave like and
inferred that therefore since we are smart and they are not like us
they are not smart.

Well consider this. Some frogs can visually distinguish between 16
and 17 approaching insects as easily as we can distinguish between red
and orange or green and yellow. Fancy that, "instant number".
No counting involved. Whatever.

My point is we think we are a lot smarter than animals because at some
sophisticated skills we are very adept. Yet so often when is comes
basic issues that we all find vitally important eg staying healthy, it
seems humans often get it wrong. Think about this for a moment. In
the year 2000 just one 50% of adults in the USA had at least chronic
illness. (This is not picking on the US, it is just that the
percentages were creeping up past the 48%, 49% mark and there was
quite a bit of speculation about when the 50% mark would be crossed.)

IMHO it is because we think of ourselves as humans and have forgotten
we are still fauna, needing lifestyles and habitats that healthy fauna
need.

--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:d1b6109ovk3g12l7hcgv55nbgjgnftvpi0@4ax.com...
this.
I just thought I'd add another little story to your interest in
elephants. This one comes from a documentary I viewed a while ago.

A young female elephant in Africa was discovered near death from
starvation in a seriously depleted habitat. So game keepers built a
pen in an area of high vegetation and low elephant population and
transported her there, where they fed and watered her and watched
over her for some time, till she regained her health and strength.

It was time to release her. So they opened the gate to the pen, and
sat back to monitor things. For about a week, she totally ignored
the open gate. Then in the second week, she would walk up to the
opening and look out, but made no effort to go further. By the
third week, although she would go to the opening, sniff the air and
look around, she still refused to leave, and they were wondering if
they should resume feeding and watering her. She was getting thin
and weak looking. They decided to throw a little feed in, and fill
her water trough.

Then one dark night she somehow avoided ALL detection and slipped
away. Their best trackers could not pick up any hints of a trail at
all, after looking for days for the odd footprint, dropping or
damage to vegetation. It took weeks before she was finally spotted
feeding and looking fine.

Go figure.

BTW, forget about tigers. All predators look at other creatures as
PREY. Unless it is another BIGGER predator. If they are part of a
social "pack", then they *might* consider you as part of the
family, but tigers are solitary cats. Try lions, at least! Or
better still, if you are keen on felines, a cheetah, who has been
habituated to co-operate with humans for ages past.

Annette
"Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly."
-- Batman Costume warning label



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"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:d1b6109ovk3g12l7hcgv55nbgjgnftvpi0@4ax.com...
Sheesh! And to think, I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time :-(

And red-green color blind at that!

I think the phrase that could be used here is "human arrogance". What say?

--
Steve, T2 - 9/29/03
A1c 5.5 - 1/23/04
Amaryl & Metformin

"Annette" <acianthus@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:bv09fh$mkfgq$1@ID-194908.news.uni-berlin.de...
Yeah, like the cheetah in the Tarzan shows. No, wait...
"Cheetah" wasn't one. He was a Chimp. Go figure.
--
Steve, T2 - 9/29/03
A1c 5.5 - 1/23/04
Amaryl & Metformin

This post not CC'd by email
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:57:21 -0500, "Lance-A-Lot"
<eelusive@comcast.net> wrote:

G'day G'day Lance-A-Lot,

Sadly we often seem to mistake cleverness with wisdom. When we look
at the prospect that 18% of animals may be extinct by 2050 under the
least global warming scenario it is easy to see that this might be so.
After we are done labeling humans, what then?

However. I look at animal problem solving for quite another reason.
I wish to understand what motivation is really all about. Animals
survive, at least their behaviour fits the notion of survival of the
species with a bit of insurance in the form of evolution into other
species. Humans seem currently more bent on self destruction
individually and as a species. I guess I wonder what are we missing
in our make up that allows this to happen and what can be done about
it.

Since humans appear to be one of the most labile, adaptable of
species, what changes do we need to make and how can we go about that?

Actually bacteria probably adapt more rapidly but we shan't go there.
<grin>

Best wishes,

--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin